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The Snoring & Sleep Apnoea Forums

The 5 year saga continues!!!

Talk about all aspects of sleep apnoea. Request help from others with the same problem, tell your story, exchange tips & techniques ..
Max68
Sergeant Snorer
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Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:10 am

Post by Max68 » Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:32 am

Thanks S2S. I suspect they got enough info. Took the second sleeping tablet at around 11.45 and was awoken around 6ish so they must have got 6 hours worth. Part of me hopes it's not too bad but half of me hopes it is because at least I'll have a diagnosis of 14 months worth of insomnia although the thought of a mask terrifies me after my brief experience a few years ago! Having said that if it potentially helps blood pressure, diabetes etc it may be worth it in the long run. A few weeks good nights sleep may cure all my ills!!!!

The BP didn't get much better today. After a walk to the surgery I took several readings and the lowest was 135/97 and the highest was 160/105 and the heart was thumping as well. They have never ever been that bad! I therefore left the readings in an envelope along with a note to my GP asking for him to call me if he was concerned cos I am!!! As I said though I only saw a cardiologist and had an ECG on Friday just gone and all was ok so no idea what is going on. I swear I panic when using BP machines because it is always pretty good on my GP's mercury device! You think you are a pain to Doctors,,,,,, meet me!!!!!!

BTW do you think a drop to 88% in oxygen saturation is particularly bad? I guess it depends on how often and for how long.

Best just wait and see what the consultant says in a months time.
Last edited by Max68 on Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Sleep2Snore
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Re: New to the site, would really appreciate some advice.

Post by Sleep2Snore » Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:40 pm

BTW do you think a drop to 88% in oxygen saturation is particularly bad? I guess it depends on how often and for how long.
I am no doctor nor to I pretend to be, but they do tend to take notice when it drops below 90%
I think everyone stops breathing during their sleep, however, it is only for a few seconds and the saturation levels quickly recover.
It is when you have Sleep Apnoea that the levels do not get the same chance to recover. As soon as one event of stopping to breath has stopped and you start breathing another comes along keeping the oxygen levels low. It is this that is the concern as it is not supplying the brain and your body with the oxygen you need. You may have a mild+ Sleep Apnoea, but without the number of events per hour, it is impossible to tell other than to say some events must have occurred.

As for your blood pressure, it is white coat syndrome plus a bit of anxiety I would imagine. I think you are getting yourself wound up a bit.
Plus, they always insist in taking blood pressure after you just get into the room, just after you have put a bit of effort into getting there. :lol:
S2S - Sleep2Snore

Max68
Sergeant Snorer
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:10 am

Re: New to the site, would really appreciate some advice.

Post by Max68 » Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:41 pm

That is true re the BP. I walked up the hill to the doctors and took it straight away so no wonder it was high, then you are wondering why it's high so take it again and it's even higher!!! Guess I will just have to accept what the cardiologist says and maybe make an appointment with my GP say once a month so he can take it monthly on his vintage monitor because it is always fine with him. If I buy a monitor again I will only become obsessed again and take it 200 times a day and panic every time it is higher than the norm!

Re my sleep I slept 9 hours last night due to the 6 the night before. My Snorelab picked up only 17 minutes of snoring and a snore score of 1. It did pick up my first awakening because if I wake I talk into the microphone. I was just mildly snoring and there was maybe a pause of 6 seconds before I say that something jolted me awake. I then heard maybe three sighs/gasps/laboured breaths throughout the rest of the night and they always follow either snoring or breathing but the gaps between the "snore" and the "gasp" are only between 2 and 7 seconds. So I may be having short period apneas which may be enough to wake me unknowingly momentarily. Then I can have long periods of nothing with just a flat line so I am either the worlds greatest breath holder or nothing much happens. Even 5 or 6 episodes a night can have an effect though I suspect.

JohnM
Private Snorer
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Re: New to the site, would really appreciate some advice.

Post by JohnM » Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:37 pm

Hey Max,

It would be good to know how you felt during the day after each of those experiments!

Max68
Sergeant Snorer
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:10 am

Re: New to the site, would really appreciate some advice.

Post by Max68 » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:23 pm

Hi John,

Well since all this started I had always felt fine during the day which was slightly confusing. No tiredness at all and I have had sleep issues now for around three years and been on sleeping tablets since October 2015. However since around early/mid November I started to feel very tired during the day, mainly afternoons and they did some more blood tests and I was found to be low on Vitamin D, which can make you tired, so they gave me supplements. They worked for a few days but I started to become tired again late November and that's continued till present. However it's not sleepiness, I almost wish it was! I am fine for two to three hours in the morning and in the afternoon sometimes it hits me and it's almost like a jet lag. I work from home and with the central heating on it tends to be worse. However if I go out I am fine and come the evening whilst sitting in front of the telly I am fine, not tired at all. I did actually consider a carbon monoxide issue with my boiler because I am fine when out of the house, but the CO Warning Sensor has never gone off. As I say at it's worst it feels like jet lag but I am not sleepy at all. Can't fall asleep for love nor money so it's very strange.

I recorded again last night using Snore Lab without a sleeping tablet and something strange woke me up four times just as I was drifting off which has been my problem for over a year. I managed to get three on the recording. First one I am just lightly snoring and then I wake up and announce to the recording that some strange sound in my head has woken me up. The next two are interesting though because I am lightly snoring and then just before I wake up there is a whistle in my breath and a slight clicking noise. I then wake up and again announce that a strange noise and a jolt in my head has woken me up. I actually said the noise sounded like a bell and the jolt was like electric zapping my head. For the rest of the night when asleep I have moments of light snoring then sometimes a cough or sometimes a snort or a louder breath but rarely are there extremely long pauses before those happenings. I actually think what is happening is that my throat may be closing but I am almost immediately waking up as soon as it closes. So maybe it's more of a Upper Airway Resistance rather than Sleep Apnea although an immediate wakening wouldn't drop my oxygen saturation down to 88% like it did at the study, no matter how briefly.

I did awake with a bit of a coughing fit last night at one point as well but that's never happened before as far as I can remember. One or two coughs yes but not a coughing fit. The odd thing is that on a night of heavy snoring these strange awakenings and the cough, snort, laboured breath or sigh are less than a night of mild snoring. Last night according to the app I only snored for 14 minutes, that's 3% of the night. However there are more points of interest so to speak on that "quiet" night than a night of heavier snoring for 1 hour and 20 minutes or 20% of the night. The strange theory being is that I tend to sleep better the more I snore!!!

GP rang me today as well and wasn't happy with my blood pressure scores so has prescribed me some BP medication. It's not lost on me that higher blood pressure, fatigue and type 2 diabetes have all raised their ugly heads since my sleep problems started,. Whilst to start with I didn't want to be diagnosed with sleep apnoea or UARS now I think I would welcome the diagnosis because if I can get it treated then maybe it will help the blood pressure and possible even the diabetes.

My only concern is that as I said three years ago I tried a CPAP and didn't sleep a wink for a week so they took it back. I just couldn't get over the claustrophobia of not being able to breathe out against the constant pressure. In my case I am wondering if a APAP or BIPAP would be better, not sure which is the automatic one, but whatever I have to see the consultant and get my results first!

Guest

Re: New to the site, would really appreciate some advice.

Post by Guest » Sat Feb 04, 2017 4:13 pm

I wake up suddenly as if I've been hit by lightning too sometimes, although I wouldn't say it is a common occurance for me. I never really associated it with sleep apnea but it's interested to see that someone else with sleep problems is experiencing this. I have other symptons but have not been diagnosed with sleep apnea yet due to the very lengthy NHS waiting times.

A possible side effect of sleeping pills is that they can make you tired the next day, is it possible that by treating your insomnia you are inadvertently creating this issue as a result?

Max68
Sergeant Snorer
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:10 am

Taken a while but finally a diagnosis. I knew something was amiss!!!!

Post by Max68 » Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:08 pm

Well finally went back to the sleep clinic today and saw the consultant after my sleep study back in January.

The results from the night in question show mild sleep apnea (or sleep disturbed breathing as he called it) with an AHI of 12. Apparently I had sleep disturbed breathing either 108 or 118 (I can't remember) times during the night and my oxygen levels dropped at it's worst point to 83%. The longest pause in breathing was 20 seconds, and apparently once I fell asleep I did stay asleep but did snore all night. However he thought the results may be higher than normal because I needed two sleeping tablets to nod off and that relaxes the throat even more than usual.

All caused he believes by the fact that my lower jaw is quite small and is further back than my upper jaw causing an overbite of 8mm so in my case anyway losing weight etc wouldn't really help. He is booking me in to see an orthodontist for a fitting of some sort of mandibular device which should bring the lower jaw forward a bit thus opening the airway. My case wasn't considered severe enough for CPAP.

Oddly enough he didn't seem particularly over concerned about the sleep disturbed breathing, which surprised me a tad, but then again he is the expert!! He was extremely good actually and really did ask questions, noted my answers and studied my test results and documentation closely which is nice but at the same time I have to wonder how two previous sleep apnea tests came back negative and this diagnosis is pretty much three years down the line!!!

He has also advised me to purchase a book by Colin A Espie called "Overcoming Insomnia and Sleep Problems" to try and help with my insomnia because he thinks the insomnia isn't only caused by any sleep disturbed breathing but he thinks I have a fear of sleeping which is making me anxious so therefore I don't fall asleep easily like I used to.

So in many ways it's a relief because I knew something was up and if I had walked out of there today with yet another negative result I wouldn't have known which way to turn. I would certainly advise others to get a full Polysomnography done rather than the other NHS sleep test which just has an oximeter on your finger, a strap around your middle and video and audio because I suspect with mild cases that test isn't enough. A Polysomnography will almost certainly pick up mild, moderate or severe.

So now just have to wait two months for the orthodontist and hope to god that I can sleep with some sort of mandibular device!!

So one chapter closes and another one opens!!!
Last edited by Max68 on Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Max68
Sergeant Snorer
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:10 am

Taken a while but finally a diagnosis. I knew something was amiss!!!!

Post by Max68 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:10 pm

Well the Queen Victoria Hospital are quick. Received a letter today referring me to an orthodontist and have written results of polysomnography and examination.

"Polysomnogram showed apnoea hypopnea index which is slightly raised at 12 events/hour with 118 oxygen desaturations and a mean oxygen desaturation of 92% with a nadir of 85%".

"Mild retrognathia, Class II division 1 occlusion with an overjet of 5mm, slightly widened tongue base, Mallampati score of 3, reduced oropharangeal volume and 7mm jaw subluxation."

And I thought I knew my dictionary!!!!! :shock:

Max68
Sergeant Snorer
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:10 am

The 5 year saga continues!!!

Post by Max68 » Wed May 17, 2017 7:26 pm

Well finally after a 4 month wait I saw the orthodontist today and he refused me a mandibular device because of my smoking!!! (No lectures please - I know, I know!!) According to his interpretation of the X Ray of my jaw I have receding gums and receding bone in the jaw which again according to him is down to ageing and smoking and a mandibular device could put pressure on my teeth and I could eventually see some of them falling out, although he did say the teeth themselves are perfect!! He also bizarrely said he could be misinterpreting the X Ray!! :shock:

This I suspect will be news to my dentist who has said there is slight receding of the gums but that was down to over brushing and at my last appointment in March he was happy that the receding had stopped since I have used an electric brush more often hence now no longer brushing to hard with a regular brush. The X Ray I had at my dentists last year showed no such issue with my jaw and even the top consultant at the Sleep Clinic back in January didn't see any such issues and was more than aware that I was a smoker so somewhat confused at the news today. I see that consultant again in July so will discuss with him then.

Even my GP has said that with various health issues and other personal issues going on in recent months that giving up smoking, whilst obviously a good idea, wasn't a priority at the moment because of the other battles going on and another stressful exercise might be one battle too far. Yes I have tried quitting many times and just haven't managed it permanently as yet.

So I will probably speak to my dentist as my only options seem to be quitting cold turkey in the outside hope that a MAD might help if I am given one eventually, trying CPAP again or just living with a mild dose of sleep apnoea!!

The 5 year saga continues!!!!

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Sleep2Snore
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Re: The 5 year saga continues!!!

Post by Sleep2Snore » Thu May 18, 2017 12:54 pm

Maybe you should change to Electronic Cigarettes instead. If you stop smoking you will after a while think smokers just stink, sorry, but there is no other way to say it. A lot of people have managed to at least reduce how much they smoke electronically even by using these.
If the Dentist at the hospital thought your teeth were that bad, why did he not send you to have the gums deep cleaned?
If you have a receding jaw it may cause you problems and sending you for a MAD device would sound like a good idea, however, for some reason the dentist didn't want to fit one and I don't think it is just because of a little bit of receding gums. Maybe you teeth are just to far apart, but as I am not a dentist I have no idea. Strange both dentists do not agree to the state of your gums!
Back to the consultant then at the sleep clinic. However, they do not tend to treat Mild Sleep Apnoea, but wait to see what he says because it is not weight that is your problem, it is a receding jaw. So they may decide to treat you on that basis with CPAP just to see if it will help.
I think I did say at the start that it sounded like you have mild Sleep Apnoea.
All you can do is go see the consultant at the Sleep Clinic and tell him what is going on as things will only get worse as loosing weight will not help, however, it will make a change for the good to your health as carrying extra weight around is not good anyway.

Good luck and keep posting your results and journey.
I my not answer, but I do read them. So do others, and it is always a help to see others with the same problems as themselves. :)
S2S - Sleep2Snore

Max68
Sergeant Snorer
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:10 am

Re: The 5 year saga continues!!!

Post by Max68 » Thu May 18, 2017 1:45 pm

Thanks S2S. Funnily enough I have started vaping as well recently and have actually cut down from 25 a day to 15 a day so I am on the right track!! The funny thing is it's obviously not my teeth, even the orthodontist says my teeth themselves are perfect it's the receding gums and this apparent wearing of the bone in the jaw so that the support of the teeth aren't as good apparently as it could be. But even he said it (like receding gums) will never grow back you can just slow down the process but if they aren't strong enough now to withstand a MAD they won't be strong enough regardless of if I give up smoking or not. I see my dentist and hygienist every six months and the last time I saw them they were both very pleased because the gums were healthier due to not brushing as hard so hence my confusion with the orthodontists claims. My last xrays at the dentists didn't show anything untoward so again you would have thought my dentists would have spotted it if something had been going on. I will talk to my dentist and see what he says.

It is a mild case of apnoea so as you say they might not decide to treat it now the MAD seems off the table. Must confess my insomnia isn't now as bad and I rarely jerk awake constantly like I did before and that's been since I put a couple of bricks under the head of the bed so now I, touch wood, don't get acid reflux attacks at night, so this whole thing may be down to a combination of mild apnoea and reflux. I know one can lead to the other although it's not quite known which is more responsible.

Onwards and upwards!!

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Sleep2Snore
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Re: The 5 year saga continues!!!

Post by Sleep2Snore » Thu May 18, 2017 7:34 pm

If they decide not to treat your Sleep Apnoea, ask them if they will look after you and the machine if you bought one of your own. Buy a second had machine (Second Wind from America) or one advertised here just to try it. They might agree to supply mask and parts, I don't know as it is a funny set up in England. But it is worth a punt. Go for a APAP machine as they can work running in either CPAP or APAP.
You will need a hose, a mask and a Humidifier, but hopefully they will let you try some masks at the clinic.
Talk to them when you are in, you have nothing to loose and everything to gain. It's like this, you have to try something and although NICE say not to treat Mild Sleep Apnoea, I know a few people that feel like new people since they got sorted, though it appears to take a bit longer till they felt better. Maybe it just takes a bit longer before they feel better as they are not that bad in the first place. People that are worse feel better a bit quicker usually as they feel whacked out in the first place, so any improvement is very noticeable with them.
Ask what they intend doing before you offer anything, then ask about the above option.
You could of course do nothing, but then there will be no improvement in you.
S2S - Sleep2Snore

Max68
Sergeant Snorer
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:10 am

Re: The 5 year saga continues!!!

Post by Max68 » Thu May 18, 2017 7:58 pm

Thanks S2S you have been really helpful.

Yeah I'll see what the Head Consultant says at my review in July, (although there is nothing to review) although it's worth keeping the appt to see what he says.

Agree with you that any improvement may be small but if anything to get off the sleeping tablets would be a start. To be honest this all started due to not getting off to sleep rather than feeling exhausted which I suspect you would get with severe apnoea and although I never really feel the joys of spring in the morning (I don't know anyone who does!!) I never get any headaches or sleepiness during the day and in fact if anything at times I would love to just drop off!! With any treatment though it may fill me with the joys of spring so you never know!! I was actually hoping that if any treatment did work and my apnoea went from mild to zero then it may have reversed my Type 2 Diabetes as there are rumoured to be links although no idea if mild apnoea contributes and not sure if the scientists know either!

I'll see what happens though with my follow up and thanks again for your help.

By the way I read somewhere that in the States a new device which fits under the skin has or is being trialled. Apparently it acts like a pacemaker but for sleep apnoea and it sends some sort of current to keep the throat open when apnoea's occur. Sounds a promising development but I suspect only the very rich will be able to afford it if it ever becomes a reality.

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Sleep2Snore
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Re: The 5 year saga continues!!!

Post by Sleep2Snore » Thu May 18, 2017 11:39 pm

Small current/voltage, but enough to keep the muscles in your neck tense, I did read about it somewhere.

I think you should cut down on one smoke each week until you are in the vapour ones, then you can wean yourself off them slowly.

I also think you should slowly come off the sleeping tablets and instead keep a strict routine when you go to bed etc.
That is the advice you will get if you go to a specialist, no stimulants after 7pm like coffee, tea or anything other that will keep you going.

Anyway, let us know how you get on.
S2S - Sleep2Snore

big G
Corporal Snorer
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Re: The 5 year saga continues!!!

Post by big G » Fri May 19, 2017 9:33 pm

I was recently diagnosed with sleep disorder breathing , according to my consultant a treatment of cpap is beneficial. Although I have no insomnia, I just want to sleep,also depression , type 2 diabetes and cfs. I got a book on kindle by a dr park called sleep interrupted, which for me found quite helpful.

Hope you get something soon.

G

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